The USS Olympia comes to Olympia

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The USS Olympia comes to Olympia

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 07/09/2007 - 10:08pm.

We had a conversation on OlyBlog with sailors from the USS Olympia a while back. It appears as if some are in the mood to organize some sort of demonstration or protest of the sub coming to town. Via Portland Indymedia:

We just learned, fairly recently, that the military will be sending three boats to the port here in Olympia. The boats will be here for our glorious, annual Lakefair, a gross exercise in denial, military worship and escapism.
The military is not shipping anything this time. Instead they are coming into our town in order to further perpetuate the tolerance and celebration of military "culture". If we did anything, it would not be to physically stop the war from proceeding as usual but to show them we will not allow them to insult us by bringing their boats here after the SHIT they pulled on those who just recently, a year later, came out of the courtrooms.
There are no plans for anything as of now. But we know the date, we have a little over two weeks and we have a lot of people who have been in this town for a long time. If there are any times and places thrown out there they will be announced.
As for all of you out there, in Cascadia, traveling through or thinking about traveling through, use your imaginations and dream some dreams. Aberdeen was in the middle of nowhere and we did what we could, Tacoma was Tacoma, and now we are here, the conditions being what they are. A lot has been learned, some rifts have developed, some ideas have spread, others have continued to stagnate and some of us have learned to work together. But the possibilities of what can happen in Olympia on the 20th and the days following are limited only by us, our numbers and our determination.

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that the idea of "Love the troops, hate the war" might be lost if the demonstrators are not careful in crafting their message around this event. Maybe it's not about the war, per se, but militarism and empire in general. But then, why pick on these sailors in particular?

Rick's blog

I've not heard that the

Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 07/10/2007 - 10:02am.

I've not heard that the Olympia will be here. I did read that the CO and Sailor of the Year from the sub will be here. The Olympia is undergoing a 3 year overhaul in Pearl Harbor (nuclear fuel rod replacement).

Military Worship?

Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 10:10am.

Portland 'Indymedia' said "The boats will be here for our glorious, annual Lakefair, a gross exercise in denial, military worship and escapism." Military Worship? Denial? What is the author talking about? This statement demonstrates Psychomyopia, or nearsightedness of the mind.

As a resident of Olympia, our family, neighbors, and friends serve on these ships. Our tax dollars pay for them and they defend our nation as well as others. How utterly selfish and conceited does a person have to be to think that a submarine visiting a port for which it is named is 'military worship'. Keep in mind this is the same or part of the same group who has turned environmentalism into a cult religion. So they see people paying respect to the servicemen and taking the opportunity to learn something as 'worship'. And why shouldn't they, as they have done the same thing, with the environment.

People don't worship the military. Saying such a thing is stupid and remarks like this should be rebuked. Passing such convoluted thinking on is not worthy of the readers of this blog.

It wasn't a liberal...

Submitted by Rick on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 12:11pm.

...who warned us about the military-industrial complex, it was Republican President, Dwight Eisenhower. Now, it's pretty easy to see that the military's only function is not protection of our country (e.g., Iraq), so I have a fair amount of sympathy with the view expressed by that post from Portland Indymedia. (I think there is an important distinction between military and service people which is often overlooked, hence the difficulty with protesting one without protesting the other.)

If you really want to have a serious discussion about this issue, you're going to have to make the case that the military (and our President) is NOT entirely out of control at present.

When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

This seems to be a common misconception, or commonly expressed

Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 12:18pm.

In fact, not all people on the left subscribe to all left causes. Some people are environmentalists, some are pro-peace, some are anti-war, some fight for economic justice, etc etc. By lumping people together you stifle yourself from learning about the people around you. People are nuanced.

"Our tax dollars pay for them...."

Submitted by Norm on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 12:30pm.

Good point, that makes me want to see them even more. I wonder if we could convince TJ and the other protesters to go on vacation while the boats are in town?

I'm not all that concerned

Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 12:41pm.

I'm not all that concerned about the protests - I don't think you'd see many from the OMJP and OlyPMR getting all up the business of these sailors. They'll be there with signs, but I can't see it getting confrontational.

The issue last night was the security needed to ensure safety for all. Only the mayor extended his hand - not Mah, not Kingsbury. I believe the mayor's compromise fell short, but it was something. TJ didn't do this one by himself. He had the support of 5 other council members and a council chamber of maybe 20 people who were against the ships coming to Olympia.

TCSO may save us - but it is unclear right now. I have to say, the TCSO isn't afraid of doing their jobs. The OPD has their hands tied by the council when it comes to actually policing the port protests. The TCSO and WSP don't take any guff so I'd actually be glad if OPD could escape this duty and others take the job.

Rick said, “(I think there

Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 2:15pm.

Rick said, “(I think there is an important distinction between military and service people which is often overlooked, hence the difficulty with protesting one without protesting the other.)

If you really want to have a serious discussion about this issue, you're going to have to make the case that the military (and our President) is NOT entirely out of control at present.”

The military is the people. Other wise it is just a bunch of equipment painted green or beige lying about. The difficulty you experience is that you are trying to make a distinction where there isn’t one to be made. Perhaps the distinction you are looking for is the civilian leadership of the military, and the military itself. Not to overstate the obvious but if that is the case then it is clear that the protesters have been protesting the wrong people.

The military is not out of control and it is foolish to make such an explicit assumption. You may not agree with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, or the war on terror in general, but this doesn’t make the military out of control. You don’t like Bush and his handling of the war, fine I can understand that. But to ignore that the military was damaged terribly under the current administrations predecessor would be to take things out of context in a way that will lead to incorrect conclusions.

Like it or not we have not had a terror attack of any meaningful magnitude since 9/11. Our nation as well as other nations continue to break conspiracies of terrorists to do damage, and we capture and kill terror leaders continually. Our military has done very well at containing terrorism in one region and keeping our citizens safe. That is one of the main objectives of the military wouldn’t you agree?

True or False..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 2:30pm.

9/11 happened on George W Bush's watch: T/F

The Iraq Lost Failure was initiated by George W Bush: T/F

Terrorism is a bigger global threat because of George W Bush's policies: T/F

c'mon

Submitted by Norm on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 3:01pm.

9/11 happened on George W Bush's watch: T/F

Absolutely true. Is this because he was president, or just timing after being pissed at the US for how long now?

The Iraq Lost Failure was initiated by George W Bush: T/F

Iraq lost failure? That doesn't even make sense Bub.

Terrorism is a bigger global threat because of George W Bush's policies: T/F

Dunno. Do you have any numbers to support a theory? I'm hearing about it more through the media now, than before 9/11. Is that because it's happening more, or because of a shifted focus by the media?

"Terrorism is a bigger

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 3:21pm.

"Terrorism is a bigger global threat because of George W Bush's policies: T/F

Dunno. Do you have any numbers to support a theory? I'm hearing about it more through the media now, than before 9/11. Is that because it's happening more, or because of a shifted focus by the media?"

Nice one there Norm..

I always make it a point to come onto Olyblog, not contribute anything, and just talk out of my ass without any facts or numbers to back anything up.

Oh come on -Norm asked for

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 3:28pm.

Oh come on -

Norm asked for some numbers, you've provided them. Simple, no? Could've even been done nice.

Tschida

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 3:40pm.

True or False:

Terrorism is a bigger global threat because of George W Bush's policies: T/F

Ok bub, I'll bite

Submitted by OlyCop on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 5:18am.

Terrorism is a bigger global threat because of George W Bush's policies: T/F
False, the threat has always been there.
The build up to 9/11 was under Slick Willy's watch, and he clearly dropped the ball, because he was too busy dropping his pants. Because of Slick Willy the terrorists got 2 wacks at the trade center.
But because of GWB, the threat hasn't been occurring on our homeland. Yes we will get our turn in the terror punch bowl again, but the chance of that and the frequency of the attacks on US soil will only go up if we take the heat off the terrorists in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

You are wrong Olycop..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 6:47am.

You are wrong..

Former President Clinton (and his penis) in fact was not President When 9/11 occured.

It was, in fact, current president George W Bush who was President when 9/11 happened.

President George W Bush was even warned a month beforehand about highjacked planes and buildings in NYC, as shown here , in the August 6th, 2001 presidential briefing.

Whatever Bub

Submitted by OlyCop on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 7:03am.

The powers that made the first attempt on the trade center are the same as those that made the second attempt. They had planned for several years prior to the first attempt, and continued to plan after the first attempt through to the successful second attempt.  Slick Willy has more ownership for 9/11 than GWB.
No doubt, there were things that were missed by GWB admin, but the intell was there for Slick Willy and his wild Willy to act on for years before, and he did nothing. At least GWB has done something. You might not like it, but he has acted.
We are fighting the same group (and others)in Iraq that made the two attacks on the trade center right now. Yet you advocate for us to pack up and leave. Do you really think that is wise?
"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

The WTC bombers went to jail.

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 7:12am.

Unlike the search for OBL. From Wikipedia:

The attack was planned by a group of conspirators including Ramzi Yousef, Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman, El Sayyid Nosair, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Ahmad Ajaj, and Abdul Rahman Yasin. They received financing from al-Qaeda member Khaled Shaikh Mohammed, Yousef's uncle.
(...)
In October 1995, the militant Islamist and blind cleric Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman, was sentenced to life imprisonment for masterminding the bombing. In 1998, Ramzi Yousef was convicted of "seditious conspiracy" to bomb the towers. In all, ten militant Islamist conspirators were convicted for their part in the bombing, each receiving prison sentences of a maximum of 240 years.

Enough BS Olycop

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 7:17am.

Terrorism is increasing in number throughout the world right now because of George W Bush's policies:

True or False

Your analysis, OC...

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 6:52am.

...is contrary to the facts in so many ways, it's hard to know where to start.

Let's just leave the gratuitous Clinton-bashing for a moment, and remember on the memos: "Al Qaeda Determined to Attack in U.S." These were received (and ignored) by Bush.
Every study that I've heard about in the last 4 years reports MORE global terrorism, not less.
There are far more plausible reasons why there hasn't been an attack in the US since 9/11. None of them have anything to do with the efforts of the Bush admin. It is more likely that the 9/11 attack took a long time to plan, recruit for, and execute. There are probably similar plans in progress now. However, the Bush admin. is spending more time trying to restrict the civil rights of citizens than actually tracking terrorists.
Most analysts see TSA changes around air travel as ineffectual and virtually nothing has been down about port security.
No creditable analyst I've heard believes the fight-them-over-there-so-we-don't-have-to-fight-them-over-here" meme. There is no reason why they can't do both, and all of our resources are committed to a failed policy in Iraq (thereby alienating the rest of the world), instead of working toward peace and justice in places where we could actually do some good.

3 facts are not in doubt here Rick..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 6:57am.

1) Republicans have some sort of bizzare obsession with Bill Clinton's penis.

2) 9/11 happened on George W Bush's watch (or lack there of).

3) Terrorism is increasing in number around the world due to George W Bush's policies.

Exactly Rick,

Submitted by OlyCop on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 7:24am.

your below statement lays the blame for 9/11 exactly where is belongs, in you favorite weenie waggers lap.
It is more likely that the 9/11 attack took a long time to plan, recruit for, and execute.
And with all the increases of global terrorism, how come there hasn't been more here on the homeland?
The three biggest terror attacks on the homeland came out of the Slick Willy admin, trade center 1, OKC, and trade center 2 "planning".
So the leftist rhetoric on civil liberty restriction comes out again. Well, give me some examples how your civil liberties have been restricted in the last 6 years, Rick. Give specific examples please. I know I haven't experianced any restrictions on my civil liberties under the Bush admin, but I sure did under the clinton admin. I couldn't buy some long arms and couldn't get certain magazines, etc.
No creditable analyst I've heard believes the "fight-them-over-there-so-we-don't-have-to-fight-them-over-here" meme.
Of course, if someone says the above quote, regardless of how correct they may be, if it doesn't fall into your closed minded assessment of the war, they aren't credible, right? I have been to a fair amount of training in terrorism and counter-terrorism over the last few years. This is by people that have been there and done that, and they are confident if we fight them over there we will fight them here less. The enemy has limited resources just like us. But lets pull out of Iraq and effectively hand the whole country over to the terrorists.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

true or false

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 7:26am.

Terrorism is increasing in number throughout the world right now because of George W Bush's policies:

True or False

Your logic is weak...

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 7:47am.

...and your motivations are clearly about partisan politics, not about getting to the truth. Just take your hypocrisy about the planning for WTC attacks. You claim that Clinton is responsible for 9/11 because it took so long to plan. But you also blame him for the '93 bombing (when Clinton was in office for less than a month). If you demonstrated any kind of intellectual honesty, you would assign responsibility for the first attack to Reagan and Bush I.

You also demonstrate a lack of maturity with your constant reference to "Slick Willy." Now, you can continue to act like a child in this conversation, but you won't get much respect until you apply consistent logic and a bit more maturity.

Just like always Rick,

Submitted by OlyCop on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 9:09am.

attack the poster when you can't win the argument. You are sooo predictable, but entertaining. :-)
As for the respect comment, I don't come to Olyblog for some sort of ego boost or validation. But it's funny how those that believe the same as you, even docents, make comments far more at the juvenile end of the spectrum than anything I write, but you never call them on it. Or at least not publicly.
Consistently inconsistent.
"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

Are all cops this dumb?

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 9:24am.

Are all cops this dumb?

stop lying..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 9:28am.

and answer the question:

Terrorism is increasing in number throughout the world right now because of George W Bush's policies:

True or False

Nice job, docent

Submitted by OlyCop on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 9:36am.

but I'm sure you can make personal attacks with impunity.
"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

Again..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 9:39am.

Terrorism is increasing in number throughout the world right now because of George W Bush's policies:

True or False

If I were a docent I would

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 9:38am.

If I were a docent I would remove your comment. It's not helpful at all. Everybody partaking in this conversation right now seems detached from reality. Your all living in the land of I'm Right. Funny thing about that place is the whole time you're there, there is a really bright light glaring in your eyes keeping you from seeing anything else. Time to breathe dudes.

Oh by the way, dudes, Clinton IS responsible for two of the destructive forces in world history: NAFTA and WTO, both created on Clinton's watch, with his help, and both supported by the first and second Bush administrations.

thats great..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 9:42am.

Clinton is not the issue here and I refuse to fall for any that..

Yeah,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 9:52am.

the thread is supposed to be about port protests or the visiting ships. You're just as fascinated with Bush being naughty as OlyCop is with Clinton. I bet you guys agree on something, you should try to go to that place and work from there, instead of hammering the same questions at each other over and over and not getting anywhere but headache land.

Thanks for the link

Submitted by Norm on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 8:12pm.

I can't imagine why you seem so hostile though. I only asked for something that is frequently asked of others on the blog.

So are you pissy because I asked a completely normal question, or pissy because your first two questions don't have a thing to do with the price of tea in China?

Ill PM you..

Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 8:24pm.

Ill PM you..

I beg to differ. Now I'm not

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 2:36pm.

I beg to differ. Now I'm not trying to say that atrocities like this happen all the time or that this represents every single United States soldier but disgusting moments like these have happened quite often usually with Bush, his voters and other assorted flag wavers denying that anything wrong was done.

of course the military's out of control

Submitted by Rafael on Wed, 07/11/2007 - 4:28pm.

the military's been out of control since before I was born.

The Dirty Wars in Central and South America?

Huge bases on every continent?

Depleted uranium?

Massive, continual pollution and environmental destruction?

The School of the Americas and other training programs for dictators and devils?

Unabashed, constant overt and covert propaganda in everything from glossies to the Superbowl?

Intentional targeting of civilian populations?

Half of the Federal budget?

Torture?

Murder? And murder? And murder? And murder? And murder? And murder?

NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION?

The US Military and intelligence apparatus and the industries it supports are probably the greatest single threat to our species' continued existence on this planet. The "War on Terror" is nothing more than an Orwellian marketing term for endless war and a flimsy excuse to expand the killers' already grotesque scope and power. Wake up. Please.

I've locked this thread.

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 07/12/2007 - 9:58am.

Again: if you think this blog exists so you can piss on other people's ideas, you don't really get it. There are plenty of blogs where you can argue ad nauseum. If you're not willing to post your own stuff, putting your own ideas on the line, then go away.

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