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Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 03/11/2008 - 3:02pm.
»

Hmm, I wanted more than one option

I'm glad the port decided to make restitution, but obviously I didn't pick that one.
»

make the protesters/ those arrested pay

You must not think that the war is a grievous offense that is worthy of being resisted by the citizens of the USA.
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Now Bert...

nt
»

A Poll is created. Options

A Poll is created. Options are given. Users choose whichever option they believe.

Is it right to belittle the user for their choice? If you had every intention of calling out people who voted "make the protesters/those arrested pay", then this is a baited trap.

What happens next is people get defensive and/or reactive, "it all starts up again", and since the docents are already tired and fed-up there could be a swift, Draconian crackdown which leads to a continuation of the simmering resentment.

Is it possible to ask us why we would vote that way, instead of telling us what we must be thinking? (and what a loaded statement it was, too.)

»

This might be better in a PM

First, you don't know for sure what my vote was. Second, you are wrong in your statement. I just think there is a point where I stop agreeing. Probably a better PM though, or over a beer.
»

You're Right

Yes, it would have been better as a private message. Sorry Norm.

Aldo Leopold: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."
»

Seriously Bert

You are a good guy, don't let anyone tell ya otherwise.
»

I second that, he's a good

I second that, he's a good guy - bert and I already PM'd each other a couple times today - I don't think we'll ever see eye-to-eye...unless we start focusing on Nature Photography instead.
»

I really wish some of the better photo hounds on the blog

would start a "how to" series to help out us wee amateur photographers.
»

Me Too!

n/t

 

"A point of view is only a view from a point..." ~ Unknown

»

Yes! That would be

Yes! That would be wonderful!
»

Bert is actually Rob's evil twin

He must have broken out of that little room in the attic.
»

D'oh! Are we back to Rob officially? My bad.

nt
»

If in doubt, just call him

If in doubt, just call him Rob *pause* bert.
»

I voted "good for the Port"

They are the ones that needed the services that the city provided. If I call an ambulance, I pay the bill, even if it's not my fault I need the ambulance.

image
»

That Makes Sense

And obviously, as an entity, the Port profited substantially from the shipment.

I wonder how much exactly the military paid to use the port.

»

Ouch

I voted (in the majority) and have to say, ouch.  Obviously the last choice is a pipe dream but I gotta say, I'm quite surprised by the results thus far.
»

You can probably guess what I voted...

I agree with Norm. I would like to be able to select numerous options. The topic of "who deserves to pay" for the consequences of the military shipment last November is complex and this poll is an oversimplification.

However, when forced to decide, I think the most appropriate parties to make up for losses and damages are those members of the Bush Administration (and associated interests) who are responsible for causing this whole mess, war of domination and conquest, etc.

The problem is the policy. On a side note. I watched an ad for the Air Force last night (linked from WashingtonPost.com). It was scary the way the Major General was talking about global and even space based full spectrum dominance...

I guess I just prefer a cooperative foreign policy, rather than one that seeks to put down others for the national benefit (if it can even be called "benefit".)

Aldo Leopold: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."
»

I watched an ad for the Air

I watched an ad for the Air Force last night (linked from WashingtonPost.com).

Here's an informal Army recruiting video that made me laugh. Some may not have the same view.

Of course, of any formal recruiting advertisement, the Marine Corps has a monopoly. (And another one.)

I think the Department of the Army should be responsible for paying for convoy security if it involves local law enforcement. The thing is that it won't happen very often, if at all. I imagine they'll start sending the National Guard - as council member Hyer appeared to be open to - which is far cheaper.

I have no idea how long it would take to mobilize a National Guard unit, though. From the stories I've heard about the Reserve/National Guard, you're lucky to get an entire unit to show up to a normally scheduled weekend formation.

»

Can't use military

In civil situations, that includes crowd control and convey escort duties stateside. Although the gubmint has already gutted Posse Comitatus

National Guard under control of the Governor is a different story, as they have become the de facto "militia" (although in the truest legal sense of the word they are not militia)  

 

"MORBO SAYS STONE TO FLESH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY."

 

»

This thread has me trying to

This thread has me trying to figure out why Ft. Lewis MPs were present at the Port in November... any ideas?
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Ask Ft. Lewis to save your

Ask Ft. Lewis to save your self from speculation.
»

Did your comment here serve

Did your comment here serve any purpose? I find it unhelpful.
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Yeah it did.  It directed

Yeah it did.  It directed you to the authority on why MP's were here.  If you're interested in the truth of why they were here you should ask Ft. Lewis.  If you want people to guess and create speculation so it's more inline with your thinking, go for it.

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I asked a question. I don't

I asked a question. I don't recall expressing my thoughts on the matter, so I'm not sure how I attempted to get an explanation "inline with my thinking". What is it that you assume I'm thinking? Perhaps I'm misreading tone, but your comments both seem pointlessly aggressive and I'd like to know what your assumptions are here.
»

I'm not going to link to

I'm not going to link to every comment you've had on port and TESC matters.  Especially since you've had a name change.

Not agressive, just tired of hearsay and false information being propegated for all to read only to be proven wrong or inaccurate.

»

My name change here was not

My name change here was not to disassociate myself with prior comments or to 'reinvent' a persona. It was because once I found myself participating in a thread attempting to meet at the Brotherhood, and posting a general description, I became uncomfortable with that degree of public identification. I explained that already on another thread.

Even if you have an impression of who I am and what my views are, I'd like to request that in comments you respond to what's immediately before you and give me the benefit of the doubt-- it was a question about an apparent incongruity. What I heard in response seemed to be an attempt to dictate the manner in which I participate in this discussion, by calling my question an inappropriate attempt to stir speculation that would reinforce my views.

»

Fair enough.

Fair enough.
»

To keep GI's in check?

 Legally, without authorization from Bush there isn't much they can do. My best guess is they were there to make sure GI's didn't get out of line...

 

"MORBO SAYS STONE TO FLESH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY."

 

»

Exactly, your best guess. 

Exactly, your best guess.  Anyone else have any guesses as to why?  Let's make a list and then create a poll.

This is why Olyblog spins out of control at times.  We don't take reponsibility for chasing down fact for ourselves.  Instead, we rely on hearsay and sneaker-net to form opinions, rather than tracking down fact.  Let's stop doing that and be citizen journalists, not citizen gossips.

»

That's your perception...

...in my experience, folks around here usually figure it out pretty quickly.


> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
»

But are they accurate?  The

But are they accurate?  The only way to be sure is by asking those that deploy the MP's, Fort Lewis.
»

In all fairness,

You don't help by pointing that out in this thread. I think you're right to a degree, we do let assumptions lead us down the road to argument, maybe this conversation can happen in another thread because pointing it out to people in the heat of things only serves to upset them.

image
»

Really? There was some very

Really? There was some very specific information presented in this thread about the concept of 'posse comitatus'. I don't see how it's hearsay to attempt to analyze or question a situation based on information that was presented. I thought someone might know more about military procedures and how military police can be used.
»

Someone might know.  They

Someone might know.  They may also know wrong.  My point is this -- if you really want to know the truth, without correction and speculation, you should ask Ft. Lewis.

I'm not going to say it any more Ashley and Rick.  You're free to rely upon information that might ultimately be wrong.  You know how to request accurate answers.

»

Although it may take awhile, a letter to the PR department

of Ft Lewis might be the best bet. If I were forced to guess, I would say they were there to provide protection for the equipment. Did anyone ask the MP's if they were Army MP's? Maybe they were national guard?
»

distractions

In my opinion, most of what is going on with the US DoD is a "distraction" from the militarization of space taking place currently...

...to be honest, Space Command really scares the heck outta me, esp. since the DoD is "gung-ho" on the "power-sat" concept.

»

What is it you think is going to happen?

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

As of 9:30 Wednesday

As of 9:30 Wednesday morning, it seems all of Olyblog's in agreement that the city/Police Department shouldn't be held responsible.
»

Didn't vote.

nt
»

This is the first...

time I have heard of a shipment of military cargo moving through the port here in Olympian. I have lived here for three and a half years or so. When was the last time a shipment of military equipment or cargo moved through the port? Does anyone know? C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

May of '06

Is the last one that I recall, only because I was taking pictures down there on a couple of days......was it May? or April? My mind is foggy this morning.
»

It was early May. That's

It was early May. That's also the last one I recall. I understand that there was one much earlier (both shipment and protest) maybe as early as 2003.
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I imagine they'll start sending the National Guard

Could be a problem for the City. Really the work is the Police Guild's, and for the City to give it away with out negotiating likely is an unfair labor practice. I haven't done a bunch of research on the topic, but that is a first blush.

"I de-clutch, you know." Juan Manuel Fangio when asked how he avoids flat-spotting his tires when he spins the car.

»

I've wondered about that

IF the military can run security off-base, for certain things, why not stryker vehicles and other supplies?
»

Here

Relevant statutes are

Sec. 1385. - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both; and

10 U.S.C. § 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

Was actually talking about this with Phil last night. He thought something in the “Patriot Act” did away with Posse Comitatus. I said, "nope."  But Phil was right (just wrong about the law).  It wasn’t in the Patriot Act, but a provision in the John Warner Defense Appropriation Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R. 5122.ENR), that allows the President to

“...employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States..., where the President determines that,...domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order; suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy...”

So I guess the President could conceivably call out the Army to suppress the "unlawful conspirators" of Olympia. Hard to see how they can do so preemtively though...oops! Did I say "preemptive?"

»

oh wow

Thanks for the information. It's pretty terrifying that this is explicitly defined as a presidential power, and quite interesting in conjunction with some other recent bills such as the "Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Act". Expanding presidential power while at the same time expanding the definitions of some of these terms make me wonder about the intent. And that's one hell of an understatement.

I remember seeing Fort Lewis MPs here in November. I don't think they actually got out of their vehicles, but they were definitely present. Based on your info here, they aren't supposed to be involved in enforcement of local law except by presidential order, and I can't imagine that was invoked here. Is there some other right by which they could have been here responding to civil disobedience?

»

FRO 98.5 FM

FRO 98.5 FM www.frolympia.org
Port pays... with taxpayer funds.
City pays... with taxpayer funds.
Pentagon pays... with taxpayer funds.
Bush Administration pays... with taxpayer funds.

Lets send the bill to Halliburton!

»

Lets send the bill

 To those convicted of some of the crimes...  or PMR could have a bake sale or something.

It does suck that one way or another the taxpayer gets bitten.  

 

"MORBO SAYS STONE TO FLESH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY."

 

»

I agree S6

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

A number of officers were stuck with

standing between the pro-peace and pro-war crowd. Who do we charge for those expenses?
»

Rob Whitlock and Jeff Brigham

 can hold a mutual bake sale to pay for that too :-p  

New sign too "God Bless home cookin' " 

 

"MORBO SAYS STONE TO FLESH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY."

 

»

no one is paid...

...maybe until the "powers that be" figure out who is "footing the bill" for these costs, no one should get paid, but then again I'm all for volunteer peace-keepers in the community...

...and pls realize that when a sub-contractor(Halli., KBR, Wackenhut, etc...) works for our gov (at any level), we (the taxpayers) pay those costs.

I'm still confused~

WHO required/ordered the OPD to staff the Port?

Isn't the opportunity to work at the Port optional?

»

Chad, The OPD did not staff

Chad, The OPD did not staff the Port. Their jurisdiction is outside of Port property. They did use Port property inside the gate to stage and take breaks. The OPD are responsible for keeping the steets open and usable. That is why they were there. The Port had hired private security to handle any problems inside the fence. There was only one incident inside of the fence. That person was handed over to OPD. The MPS were there to protect government property not to act as traffic cops.
»

thanks for the info

no text
»

Thanks, Keith !

Excellent point. The City is responsible for keeping public streets open for lawful traffic.

I can see the Port or the Military paying for any excess police presence needed for traffic control because of convoys or higher than normal traffic. But they are not responsible for keeping public streets in Olympia open for lawful traffic.

Jeff Brigham


"The best defense against terrorism is a strong offensive against terrorists. That work continues.”

President George W. Bush

»

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