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Submitted by Rick on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 11:51am.
I want to tap the knowledge of folks on OlyBlog who know something about police protocol. The unfortunate event at TESC sounds to me like the combination of an unruly crowd with poor police work. So, here are some questions:
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what I have seen...
Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 12:03pm....during events in public is that law enforcement usually hang-out on fringe, and surveil.
In "2s", patrols will walk or bike though crowd (never have seen a working dog on patrol, usually deployed with cars on fringe).
Most violence is dealt with ASAP, restraints (I have seen pepper sprays & what was called a "freight check" at Fred Meyers, where a group tackles suspects).
The flipped car in the Olympian photos
Submitted by Tschida on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 12:04pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
After watching the vid...
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 12:33pm....on the Olympian, it's evident that initially, it was a TESC cop acting alone. It was her decision to try and arrest an individual in the middle of a concert. Was this a bad decision?
It seems like the response of the TCSO might be an indication that it was a mistake. The sheriff's office immediately said "Let him go."
Could this have been avoided if the initial officer had taken a different approach?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
It seems like the response
Submitted by Jurjen S. on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:15pm.Really?
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:21pm.Couldn't they just have taken names (of all parties), and then followed up later?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Maybe I can give some background
Submitted by Jurjen S. on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:12pm.I'm on the Police Services Community Review Board, so I have some insight into what's been going lately. Disclaimer: I am speaking by personal token here, not in my capacity as a member of the PSCRB.
Basically, certain people on campus have been harboring rancor against police in general since the Port protests; not just against Oly PD, but also against agencies (such as TESC Police Services) which weren't involved in the protests.
As you may also know, we've had a graffiti problem on campus this year, and recently one suspect was brought in for questioning. The person in question claimed in response that he was being subjected to racial profiling. Fact is, however, that he was brought in because two sources independently identified him by name as being a tagger.
So there's a certain amount of... prickliness on campus at present, and some people will seize on any excuse to bitch about TESC Police Services. Now, if there were any substance to these complaints, I would expect someone to have bothered to look up the fact that there is a Police Services Community Review Board and submitted a formal complaint. The fact is, however, that we haven't received a single complaint all year. Unless and until we do, I for one am not inclined to take the bitching seriously.
Note also that it was Thursday night; since there's no regular classes on Fridays, that's the night people get tanked up. I'm rather inclined to think that alcohol played a significantly larger role in this incident getting out of hand than anything the officer in question may or may not have done.
Insofar as I'm aware, and I should note that's from reading media reports while equipped with some knowledge of TESC police procedures, TCSO were not on site initially. They arrived in response to a call for backup from the TESC Police Services officer in question. Now, understand that TESC Police Services has a grand total of ten commissioned officers, and that includes Chief Sorger. Distributed over three shifts, this means that there are at any given time three officers on patrol at most. When there's major trouble, they have to call in external backup (TCSO, OPD or WSP), because there's nothing else available.
Thanks for that background...
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:20pm....that's exactly what I was hoping for. (I formated your comment -- hope that's ok).
What do you think about the TESC officer's decision to try and make an arrest in the middle of such a volatile environment, especially given the tension that you mentioned?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Beware hindsight
Submitted by Jurjen S. on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 2:18pm.Note that you're using hindsight to determine that the situation was, in fact, so volatile at the specific time the one suspect was detained that the formation of a mob was liable to be the result. And even if that were discernable at the time, my attitude would be that insofar as the TESC police officer erred, it was in not calling for backup sooner. But if she'd done that, I suspect she would have accused of "needlessly escalating the situation" by doing so.
From my perspective, it's TESC Police Services' job to enforce the law on college property. I don't think it's acceptable to counsel that law enforcement should "exercise discretion" and suspend the carrying out of their task because a possibility exists that an angry mob might form. That's essentially ceding control of the social order to mobs; qyuite literally, facilitating mob rule.
If people have a problem with the way the TESC Police Services carry out their assigned functions, the appropriate response is to file a complaint with the Police Services Community Review Board. That's what we're there for; the faculty, staff and students (I'm one of the latter) who are on the board donate our time and energy so that there is a channel available for redress of grievances that exists independently of the Police Services themselves.
first hand account
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:30pm.Ok, gonna add my $.02
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:35pm.First, I'm not a cop. I've taken some CJ courses, and have read numerous books on police work, and some of you may know that it's something I pay close attention to.
With that in mind. There is a possibility that this only escalated after the arrest (or detainment) was made. She (the officer) may have thought it was going to be very simple and it got ugly once the arrest was made. If she was comfortable with the situation to begin with, I would say she didn't really make a mistake in protocol.
TCSO probably told her to let the guy go, after the information was taken, because they did not want to escalate the situation further, and trying to protect someone who is in custody would have made life a little tougher as well. I don't think the officer did anything wrong, but she probably didn't think it was going to turn the way it did. No Monday morning quarterbacking from me though.
As far as taking names, we would have to know what was going through her mind at the time. Cops aren't perfect by any means, but she may have thought she had the instigator, and was wrong. This can be corrected after the fact though, and is generally the best course of action. Given the environment she probably was going to trust her own judgement, and not the word of the excited party-goers.
I tend to agree
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:44pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
read this
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:49pm.Bad decision to make an
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:52pm.Bad decision to make an arrest at a concert? Definitely.
This is why when you go to a concert, just about anything and everything is going on. When there's a large group, your options are kind of limited to doing nothing and coming in with a lot of people and kicking a lot of ass.
With that said, I don't think that's reason to say "See, the police made a poor call! It's their fault!" My assumption is that as a TESC Police Services officer, her experience is limited in actual law enforcement and more in the field of security (I'm sorry if that is offensive to anyone, but it's reality.) When you know nothing but "small town policing," you're not going to know how to deal with a situation your metropolitan counterparts handle on a day-to-day basis.
There's no real "protocol" for a situation. You have to use judgment. If you have poor judgment (read: common sense), you're not going to make a very good cop.
As for the TCSO vehicle, I'm assuming it was one of the first cars there to help the TESC officer.
I can't reiterate this enough: I'm shocked nobody was shot and injured or killed. A large group surrounding a single officer and - by some accounts - reaching for her weapon? Taking control of a vehicle containing either a shotgun or assault rifle?
These people are not thinking their actions through and are only going to grow more bold with each incident that goes unpunished.
They want to fight a "war" in the street (both the Port protesting and Dead Prez lyrics make as much clear) and eventually that's what they're going to get.
Both
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:58pm.the TESC vehicles I have been in have a shotgun and rifle.
I think this could have been a huge lapse in judgement by the TESC brass. There should have been more officers on duty (my opinion) given the concert, and the contents of the concert.
Nail meet head
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 2:02pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Thanks -- that makes sense.
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 2:00pm.The dynamic of a crowd is a whole other universe within which to work as a LEO. It seems like more experience and/or training might have resulted in a different outcome in this situation.
Not trying to place blame here -- just trying to get a clearer picture of what happened and why. As you said, we should all be thankful that nothing more serious transpired.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Your assumption is incorrect
Submitted by Jurjen S. on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 2:31pm.My assumption is that as a TESC Police Services officer, her experience is limited in actual law enforcement and more in the field of security (I'm sorry if that is offensive to anyone, but it's reality.)
For your information, TESC Police Services is a fully state-accredited law enforcement agency, with full police powers within their jurisdiction. They are not glorified mall security; they are actual cops. The commissioned officers are expected to at least have attended a state law enforcement academy, and most are recruited from other police agencies in the state. For example, Chief Sorger is a former division commander wih Lacey PD, and the most recent hire (officer Tyson Forest) previously served with Westport PD.
Thanks Jurjen
Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 2:34pm.I really don't want to hash
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 2:37pm.I really don't want to hash it out here because I think we more than likely would agree on a lot but this is probably an area where we won't see eye-to-eye.
Those who understand what I was saying will know and those who don't won't.
wow it's not that deep.
Submitted by lifebythedrop11 on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 1:57pm.From what I observed the
Submitted by hollyg on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 3:37pm.Thanks for adding your observations.
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 4:19pm.The more first-hand information, the better.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Thanks for sharing
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 4:31pm.Thanks Jurjen
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 7:58pm.Answers a lot of questions.
The story so far: In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people mad and been widely regarded as a bad idea. -The Restaurant at the end of the Universe
This cop caused a minor riot
Submitted by Geoduck_Digger on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 12:53am.she has a knack for finding
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 1:06am.Do you think she's just looking for "persons of color?"
I don't care if your town is 95% white (which Olympia is), when you have a hip-hop concert like Dead Prez it's going to draw a crowd from Pierce and King counties.
And I'm sorry, but majority of the people making the trek down I-5 aren't upstanding citizens.
I remember two years ago seeing a mini-riot downtown after a crowd came out of The Vault (or Limelight or whatever it was called). I'll tell you right now that those weren't Thurston County taxpayers.
She has a knack? Well, maybe
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 9:04am.“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark
Don't you mean "those people."
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 10:00am.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
It's my Unincorporated
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 11:14am.“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark
Was the person of color responsible for the infraction?
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 02/18/2008 - 10:37pm.That is the only applicable question in my mind. After spending the last few weeks jogging/walking around campus, there needs to be FAR more cops because I've smelled pot every single time. It's become an inside joke between my jogging partner and I.