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Where The Boys Are

Submitted by rainy gray on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 10:27am.

I was talking to a friend last night about why we don't post on Olyblog anymore. I'm sure people have noticed that very few women participate in this site. She and I had similar reasons. But I would like to hear other ideas and other reasons. Of course, lots of women have just faded away, and won't respond. But it would be interesting to hear from women who may be lurking, or who may participate very seldom. Why is this such a male dominated site?

rainy gray's blog
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Good Question

Submitted by Chia on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 4:42pm.

I find myself participating at times and lurking at times and just going away at other times. I participate when I've noticed posts regarding issues with which I have affinity. I lurk when the posts are interesting but I really don't have anything to add. And I go away when material normalizes violence, including that toward animals. I don't know how to approach confronting/educating people so I just go to more animal friendly realms. How about you? What is your experience?

---------
Nonviolence Includes Animals:
audio
"PETA President Ingrid E. Newkirk's address to the International Nonviolence Conference in Bethlehem"

Rainy

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 12:12pm.

why did you and your friend stop posting, if you don't mind saying? And would you speculate on other reasons women may be less likely to participate here?

Okay

Submitted by rainy gray on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 12:51pm.

I observed that there was a lot of belittling of other posters which turned me off. Also, some really aggressive conservatives. A lot of things women write just seem to be ignored, but the threads that get really nasty are popular. I don't mind discussion that involves some disagreement, but it just gets a little too rough for me. Also, I hate to say this, but sometimes people will be very aggressive and yet not very thoughtful, making statements that essentially state that there is no such thing as the subconscious or that ideals of behavior are not culturally determined, and anyone who believes such things is stupid. Someone who belittles people for believing that humans may have a subconscious mind does not make a very scintillating conversational adversary. Likewise someone who aggressively insists that "being a good person" is all the moral self-examination necessary.

My friend felt the same way, about some people being very belligerent but not very well educated or thoughtful, and was a little nervous about disagreeing with gun lovers. She wasn't seriously afraid of clashing with someone who had a gun, but she was a little nervous about it and decided to err on the side of safety. Plus some guy paid a ltitle too much attention to her and that unnerved her. WE both agreed that almost no women post, that those who do either stick to "safe" topics or are virtually excoriated by men, and there's a feeling now that it's "a boys' club."

I agree with your observations.

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 1:45pm.

Some posters are consistently aggressive, inflammatory, and belittling. They poison the atmosphere. While banning is certainly an option, is there anything your fellow bloggers can do to mitigate the negative influence of the posts you are talking about? For instance, would more open condemnations of negative posters or more positive statements in support for their targets make a difference to you? Thanks for describing the source of your frustrations at Olyblog. I don't want this to become (or remain) a boy's club.

EDIT: Is it also problematic that a some of us spend a lot of time arguing about our points of view (even when we are presenting our arguments respectfully)? I am certainly guilt of that.

No, I don't mind respectful arguments

Submitted by rainy gray on Sun, 01/06/2008 - 6:29pm.

Really, it's the belittling that bugs me. If I lose interest in an argument, I have no problem with ignoring it. I guess that my ideal online discussion forum would maintain an air of civility, and sometimes that is lacking here. I think it is probably quite likely that there are also men who have faded away from Olyblog for the same reason.

Where the boys beat each other up

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 3:28pm.

I'm not a docent anymore cause I couldn't take the aggressive comment threads. I ultimately didn't have the necessary energy and patience to try to educate people in basic healthy communication skills, while probably being beaten on at the same time myself. My last experience of trying to help a new belligerent user, a man, was my last straw.

Some men here are great. Some have even worked on their communication skills and have decided to not initiate or participate in the aggressive threads anymore. But we still do have a problem. An occasional woman can cause excessive conflict too. Probably our main trouble group are aggressive, belligerent, usually but not always male, right wing conservatives who enjoy making the rest of us jump.

I understand why many women would decide not to participate here, I also understand why guys who aren't into this type of potential brawl situation would also not post here.

Giving time outs for problematic behavior and even using bans might help, some.

A note about my title: Actually it isn't only boys who do the bashing, it mostly is, but in my clearer moments I know it helps to focus more on the behavior than the gender.

You are a gentle and thoughtful person, Sarah.

Submitted by Mike on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 9:38am.

I have always appreciated that about you. It comes through in your posts here every time.

I do think that a lot of the folks who deny institutional racism also fail to understand institutional gender bias, the difficulty/challenge/trepidation that a woman might feel about trying to have a voice here.

But I also think I have to stand back and let women find and raise their own voices here. Even stepping in to "protect" a woman from male insensitivity is patronizing and is loaded with meaning about gender roles.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." President Dwight D. Eisenhower April 16, 1953

Three Women's Voices (Alice Walker , Breeze Harper and me)

Submitted by Chia on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 10:41am.

"I do think that a lot of the folks who deny institutional racism also fail to understand institutional gender bias, the difficulty/challenge/trepidation that a woman might feel about trying to have a voice here."

And those same folks, and even those who understand instutitionalized racism and sexism, often fail to understand institutionalized speciesism.

A quote from this mornings reading:

"The animals can remember; for, like sight, memory is renewed at every birth. But our language they will never speak; not from lack of intelligence, but from the different construction of their speaking apparatus. In the world of man, someone must speak for them. And that is why, in a nutshell, Suwelo, goddesses and witches exist."
~Alice Walker, The Temple of My Familiar

---------
Nonviolence Includes Animals:
audio
"PETA President Ingrid E. Newkirk's address to the International Nonviolence Conference in Bethlehem"

And Ingrid Newkirk Makes Four Women's Voices.... :)

Submitted by Chia on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 10:47am.

please listen....

---------
Nonviolence Includes Animals:
audio
"PETA President Ingrid E. Newkirk's address to the International Nonviolence Conference in Bethlehem"

Agreed.

Submitted by Mike on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 3:52pm.

chia said: And those same folks, and even those who understand instutitionalized racism and sexism, often fail to understand institutionalized speciesism.

To walk lightly, to acknowledge all the other beings, respect for all the living things and their complex relationship with the divine.

I have to defer my work on myself in these matters when I back up and go over matters like race and gender bias that seem obvious on their face. I am not at all sure about that process.

Another Girl

Submitted by alefterasm on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 1:22pm.

I know I check OlyBlog daily, but have never even had an account till now. A lot of the time, I find it would be mostly fruitless to throw my opinion out there - either it's already been said, or it doesn't need to be. I use OlyBlog as an alternative media source - to see what's going on. I really enjoy seeing a community informing each other instead of being informed by a distant corporation. That being said, something about this caught my eye:

"sometimes people will be very aggressive and yet not very thoughtful, making statements that essentially state that there is no such thing as the subconscious or that ideals of behavior are not culturally determined."

Its interesting to me that this correlates with some things I learned in a history of science class - women tend to bring cultural perspectives to fields or territories dominated by men. From what I've read on this site, I definitely agree that there tends to be a masculine (or what is traditionally considered masculine) approach - black and white. Plan B is good, Plan B is bad - not how does Plan B fit into our culture and how can we provide what our culture considers "necessary". Police are good, police are bad - you get the picture. I would be interested to see how other women felt about the constant dichotomies - many of which I would argue to be false - appearing on the site.

Anyways, that's enough of my rambling.

Well said. I would welcome a feminine

Submitted by Mike on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 9:41am.

that seeks to integrate. Your post creates all sorts of openings for meaningful discussion. Thank you.

Female Here

Submitted by free_will on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 3:27pm.

I am still new to Olyblog, I lurk most of the time. I have written a couple of long posts just to hit the preview comment tab and watch them go POOF, not having the heart to write them all out again. I sit on the fence with a lot of issues in the area, I can relate to most of the people here but not to "one side", so I keep my ideas to myself as I feel no need to fight about what I believe in, I don't try to make anyone else believe what I do. I respect others for their own views. I guess I see this as a "community blog" and would just like more of a sense of community. Our story never grows old with new listeners.

Welcome to OlyBlog

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 3:32pm.

The tech difficulties here do make for frustrations and I think we are losing posters due to this also.

Your sense of mutual respect is appreciated, helps build just the kind of community we want.

too bad about tech issues

Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 3:37pm.

one solution to losing posts to the preview (poof) is to draft them in plain text and then copy and paste them into the the OlyBlog entry form.

New habit

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 3:39pm.

I'm slowly building the habit of doing that, or at least to save notepad copies of what I'm working on in the entry form along the way.

The technical problem, the poof and it's gone story

Submitted by Mike on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 9:58am.

is one of the reasons that I have my own blog elsewhere. If there is something that I really want to post about, I build the material, pictures and links on my own blog that is more stable than olyblog, then I copy and paste it over here.

Also, you said:

I keep my ideas to myself as I feel no need to fight about what I believe in, I don't try to make anyone else believe what I do. I respect others for their own views. I guess I see this as a "community blog" and would just like more of a sense of community.

I think that really captures one of the aspects of Olyblog's potential - the community building component. Again, like a newspaper with sections, maybe we need to develop and support a section dedicated to community building. Kind of like the "Scene" section in a newspaper. This might be a section with more limited posting rules, like take the battles to the sports and politics sections.

For me, I do feel the need to fight about what I believe in. The fight is about truth, facts, good science, reasonable public policy so that there is some chance that the world we leave for the grandchildren will be less disastrous, a world where fewer children starve or die of diarrhea or are blown up as collateral damage necessitated by economic realities and political truths. Dead children are the ultimate political truth. I feel the need to fight to protect the grandchildren. And somehow the fight has to not create more danger to the vulnerable. It's a tough one.

Quick housekeeping note

Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 3:47pm.

I made this post stick to the top of the list for now so more folks get a chance to participate, our tracker still isn't working.

I suggest that anyone who feels like bashing this thread read our social contract first and then put aside their aggression. rainy gray has a valuable discussion going on here.

Darn, I was all ready to put

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 4:47pm.

Darn, I was all ready to put my Clubberin' Boots on...just kidding.

I wonder if sometimes people mistake the Big Orange/Pink Box as "losing the article". I've gotten that error many times but the article posted anyway.

Well,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 4:55pm.

I feel really uncomfortable posting on this thread because I'm a man and post on OlyBlog all the time and this thread seems like a great start at getting more women active on the blog. I kind of feel like I should stay out of it. But, I just wanted to say that men on this blog don't do enough to make it a welcoming place for women and I hope that we all can listen to what is said on this thread, that means stop commenting on it and really listen. Then we'll better understand the ways we can change in order to be more inclusive. That's all. Thanks to the women who have commented so far, I'm already learning from you.

Well, I still post...

Submitted by jlw on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 5:13pm.

...but I wonder if part of the reason fewer women post and maybe less often is because they have more demands on their time? I know there are lots of exceptions, but women still do spend more time doing housework, cleaning up after other people, cooking other people's food, folding other people's laundry, and driving their offspring to soccer and school and dance lessons, etc. Plus, perhaps workplace expectations have something to do with it? I'm self-employed, (so I have my boss's permission, although she doesn't really approve) but how do you guys get away with posting at work?

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

maybe?

Submitted by free_will on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 5:25pm.

I am fortunate enough to be able to stay home and take to my passions, (painting, woodworking, sewing, hiking, cooking, writing and so on). Mind you I am not the "little woman" I look like, I own the tools in the house. Although I do have children I also have balance, timing is everything right. Being online is what I refer to as "me time"; and when online it is why I choose not to engage in fighting, (if I wanted that I'd go settle the dispute in the other room about who had the Hannah Montana CD first). When online I seek out things that spark something within me, allow me to learn or grow and at times just relax. As for the Men, well I have seen a huge jump in stay at home dads, we ladies need to remember this sometimes. I think the bottom line is we are all human, we all want a voice, we all need to vent and we all need to feel inspired. Our story never grows old with new listeners.

I live alone

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 5:45pm.

So I can get away with throwing things on the floor and not tucking in my sheets. Work is product-driven, and I produce. I'm also compulsive.

<sigh>

Submitted by jlw on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 6:32pm.

It must be nice to live alone. For some reason, Phoebe thinks she lives alone, too.

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

take a bow, Janet B.

Submitted by Mike on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 9:57am.

Your post gave me a big smile.

I think I somehow looked like furniture to my children when they were a few years younger. That has turned out ok because I think I now look like the easy chair or a comfortable couch to my daughters and grandchildren.

Thanks to the women

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 6:33pm.

For their comments and concerns.

I'll watch my male P's and Q's.

Janet - Find more time. I love reading what you contribute.

I'm old enough to know...

Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 11:29pm.

...the women are smarter.

That's right. The women are smarter.

Yoda Knows All

Submitted by free_will on Fri, 01/04/2008 - 11:36pm.

......the men are prettier though just like in nature heh.

....

Submitted by Norm on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 1:05am.

what kind of men are you looking at???? Or women for that matter?

female voices

Submitted by chad360 on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 10:15am.

I have been listening to female voices my whole life, and firmly believe that females should lead: in governance, in business, in community.

I would like to believe that if the US had more females in decision making positions that the quality of life would improve, especially in the psychological realms we all call our identity, our culture, our life--

--I see females working every day, at the Co-Op, at the Cafe, and the Library, and I can not express myself strongly enough when I state that I think females need to lead and males need to empower female leaders.

There is a female voice who I just "discovered" (was introduced by one female friend to this amazing person who is, yes, a female as well) at the Sherwood Press here in town.

Please, Please, Please! Women of OlyBlog reach out bring this female voice to OlyBlog!

It is 2008, it is time to "get real" and start working for change...I sense a real leader is at Sherwood Press, and I for one want to follow.

I still think

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 10:53am.

men should learn to be quiet and listen as opposed to always having to add their opinion. Just saying.

Pot Kettle Black?This

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 1:07pm.

Pot Kettle Black?

This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
C. Montgomery Burns

nice constructive comment, thanks merwyn

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 4:36pm.

Just saying: It was the

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 4:47pm.

Just saying: It was the second comment in the thread saying the same thing, "Men, keep your mouths shut." And the fact that it was a Man, a former Military Man at that (so that, if one wanted to, they could paint you in the Authoritative Male pattern), who was saying it was classic.

For what it's worth I was laughing when calling you out and not trying to stomp on your toes.

As for your point on how we should be listening: I couldn't agree more.

next time put a smiley face on it!

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:00pm.

I kind of thought you were joking, no worries.

I repeated it because I'm serious. I really felt like we had an opportunity to learn something about how to change the blog for the better, and I think it's kind of washed out now. A woman took a step to point out how OlyBlog can be dominated by male voices, and then that message was in turn dominated by male voices.

They were voices of encouragement sure, but a bit condescending also, and didn't attempt to talk about how we can change. Saying, "hang in there, it's not that bad." Is not a proper response, in my opinion. I'm not attacking any one person, that's the message I heard throughout from us men. Even your separate post, and I'm not at all disparaging your intentions, I know they were good and that you are a caring person, was condescending by reinforcing stereotypes.

I hope that we can have more threads like this and the men here can listen and learn from the women, it's the only way to solve the problem of this blog being male-dominated.

you realize, don't you, that

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:09pm.

you realize, don't you, that I had a handful of thank-you comments from women (and even some positive PMs), only one comment that reminded me not all women like "girly things", and that the only negative response comes from, of all things, a guy? Besides, as Phil indirectly pointed out, all those pictures were of things that define what I like; how many of the men on this blog roll their eyes because I refer to my yorkie as my little baby girl.

I've never had the experience of someone outraged because I held the door open for them, or because I had flowers sent to their office. My Mom's the only woman who ever stopped me from picking up the check.

I know,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:17pm.

A good question to ask might be: If something I do doesn't offend most of the people, is it then OK to do? I'm really not calling you out here Merwyn, and I hope you're not feeling challenged. I'm calling Men out for sure, but not singling you out at all. We all can learn from one another, male and female, about how to treat each other better, we have to be willing to accept that we have faults and not get defensive, but I think it can happen. Pro-feminism is a topic that I've been doing a lot of thinking and reading about lately, it's a new passion of mine, I don't mean to be a jerk about it.

No worries, I wasn't

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:24pm.

No worries, I wasn't thinking you were being jerky.

I read a Dear Abby once where a person was astonished to have been snapped at by a lady after he held the door open for her. Abby's suggestion was that he say something to the effect of "I didn't hold the door open because you were a woman, I held it open because I try to be a gentleman."

In other words, if twenty women think it's nice that someone welcomes them with flowers, and one or two women thought flowers were a disgusting attempt to purchase favors, I'd still offer flowers to others but refrain from bringing them up in any interaction with those who disapproved. I think that's called "respecting feelings"

word

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:24pm.

Well written

Submitted by Norm on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:35pm.

Talk for yourself

Submitted by chad360 on Sun, 01/06/2008 - 12:31pm.

Just that, pls talk for yourself-

-your comment following mine seemed directed at my post (which it is, isn't it Rob?).

I met a great woman at Sherwood Press ths week that is super inspirational (that is all I'm saying), and I would love to hear her voice on the ol O'blog--

I "get" what you are saying Rob, but pls don't speak "for me or at me" on this blog, OK?

I only speak for myself Chad

Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 01/06/2008 - 12:55pm.

and no, as I said, my comments were not directed at anyone. Just the universe. I don't get something, I don't get your defensiveness on this. Did what I say resonate with you in some way that you're not ready to deal with? That's cool, if so. I'm willing to take some abuse if it means that you make a personal discovery.

I hope that even while talking about patriarchy (which we are all guilty of, a lot of women included) we can keep the conversations productive and light. I promise not to make a big deal out things you say that irk me, if you promise the same. In the end, these tough dialogs are the only way to get to the nut of this issue.

Relax

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 01/06/2008 - 12:57pm.

I don't think he was calling you out. The defensiveness is pretty "male" of you btw ;)

ok, sure

Submitted by chad360 on Sun, 01/06/2008 - 9:59pm.

...and I'm also thinking that maybe when and where the comment posts on the thread is messing with how I read these posts--

--I'm certainly not out to read this stuff like it is only printed for me, but I admit I do feel kinda possesssive about what I write & what I mean by it--

Another take, Ladies

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 11:24am.

I feel as though I was pounced on, on another thread, because I responded to a post. My "maleness" was not the issue in my response. My "politics:" was.

As in all things in life, let's all make sure that we seek balance. I want to be sensitive to the feelings of the women on Olyblog and yet, all disagreements and discussions are not strictly sex oriented. I have opinions, feelings and responses because I'm a member of the human race, not just because I'm male.

FYI - I was not aware that the originator of the other post was (1) not seeking responses to her post and (2) I did not know that that person was female, but I'm hoping that won't become the new Olyblog issue. We should treat each other with respect regardless of sex.

Well Put

Submitted by free_will on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 12:15pm.

I believe we offer so much more as individuals then just our sex can determine. I am a woman but, I don't always agree with other women simply because they are female, nor do I get upset because of something said because it came strictly from a man. I am sure most people like myself, have many layers to their being. Being put in one category or expected to act in certain ways is not only judgmental, unfair and controlling, it also limits those around us from learning anything about who we really are. To me that is the gift sharing ourselves, accepting one another, being able to understand even if we do not agree. If someone is passionate about something let them be, it doesn't mean you have to want for the same but, don't try putting your views on others and expect them to take them up as their own either. Man or woman, it is simply about respecting each other for who we are.

Definitely I was lookinng for responses Larry!

Submitted by rainy gray on Sun, 01/06/2008 - 6:38pm.

And I appreciate the ones that were made. I am female, but I don't think it's necessarily because I'm female that I quit posting. I don't think it's that simple. I do think, however, that a certain kind of behavior sometimes predominates here that is a turn-off to most people of both genders, although maybe to a higher proportion of women -- at least that's what the gender imbalance in participation would suggest. And I agree very much with your statement that we should treat each other with respect regardless of sex.

Good points

Submitted by JT on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 12:26pm.

made by the women

Big welcome

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 01/06/2008 - 12:56pm.

to the new bloggers. Don't let the boys scare you off, we all talk big but........

EDIT: I meant "talk"

nt

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 2:04pm.

Thank you

Submitted by DJW on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 4:56pm.

Ladies for all the great comments. I'm going to try and do a better job of watching my language and behavior.

I agree with Yoda. I'm old enough and SMART enough to know that women are much smarter.

Holy smokes fellas

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 01/06/2008 - 5:11pm.

maybe some PMs instead of the public displays. I think you are demonstrating exactly why some people don't enjoy this place.

No way!

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 01/06/2008 - 7:31pm.

Then we'll get treated like S6 and get a public lashing for DARING to send a PM to someone. Unless I've had a drink with you, I think the PM's are going to be few and far between.

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