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Submitted by emmettoconnell on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 11:39am.
If you've noticed down in the right hand corner of Olyblog, the docent email list has been buzzing lately. We've been discussing recent posts from Anonymously Larry (here, here and here) that take a look at the comments that the Olympian gets on their website. Some of the docents want Larry's posts taken off the front page, because as I understand it, they don't want to give more attention to what they see as hate filled comments. Others (like me) like what Larry is doing. I'll admit I don't like the comments at the Olympian, don't find them helpful much at all, but if we want to change what's going on over there, what Larry is doing is a good start. You can, of course, read our entire discussion over at the list. This post is a reminder about the list, that its there and you should take a look at it regularly to see what we're talking about. If you want to chime in (the list itself is just for docents) PM one of us, and we'll pass on your thoughts to the group.
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OlyBlog.net OlyBlog is devoted to citizen journalism, including hyperlocal news and discussion specifically about Olympia, Washington. If you care about this community and are tired of corporate media, then this is the place for you. If you'd like to contribute, please register for an account. Here is a list of local news beats that need to be covered. You can post your news as a personal blog entry, and it will be reviewed (and possibly edited) for promotion to the front page. Once you've established a record of responsible blogging, you can become an autonomous user. You can also send news via email. All members of OlyBlog agree to abide by our comment and fair use policies. If you are frustrated about something said in a comment thread, go here. Latest Classified Ads Upcoming events
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While new to the Olyblog,
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 12:12pm.While new to the Olyblog, and if A.L. is the same Larry The O banned a few months ago, I must say I have to agree with his statement:
"An irony comes to mind about a media that claims to be sensitive to readers being upset with content from other readers but can justify their upsetting the readers with THEIR content. I understand that they own the paper on which you print and the website, but they don't own the readers' minds.
It will be interesting to watch this play out. The power of the press versus the power of the people?"
I too was "banned" by the O with the excuse from Aaron Mason that I was a spammer because I posted on 2 seperate comment threads about the the video. Both were negative comments. One, my feelings about the video and the other stating I lost all respect for V. Kilgore over her decision to post it & her answer to those asking to have it removed. Apparently I was considered a spammer because I used 2 different screen names (despite the same email address) to reflect the way I was feeling.
It appears our local rag is playing God with not only news stories but readers as well and I believe Larry has a right to his opinion, even when I didn't agree with it, and this forum allowed him a blog to do so.
I think he made a very valid point with the above statement and many readers do venture over here (as I did) whether they're banned or not.
Please don't turn this forum into another "Daily Zero" by censoring the voice of others just because you don't like it. I was told this forum was good about not doing that and that people here were open & honest about their opinions here and that friendly discussions took place about opinions whether they were agreed on or not! Then the first article I read on the front page is about censorship!? It prompted me to join (after just being an anonymous reader for months) just to voice MY opinion!
JstPlnOnry
banning people from Olyblog
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 12:19pm.Please don't get me wrong!
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 12:29pm.Please don't get me wrong! I'm not saying banning PEOPLE, I'm just asking not to pick & choose what gets front page because one or a few don't like it!
I'm the first to admit I never agreed with Larry's stance on subjects or his mannerisms in expressing them but... That said, I do believe he nailed it with this one and said it in a very unoffensive manner! I can certainly understand his frustration, even more so now that I'm walking a mile in his shoes for voicing my frustrations at the O and getting banned for it! I'm certain had I patted V. Kilgore on the back & stroked her ego for her stance, I wouldn't have been banned!
From what I've read here in the past few months, this is a great forum with respect for one another! Something the O is sorely lacking but who can really compain since it's free and they feel free to silence the opinions they don't like!
I was just surprised to see such a lengthy discussion about Larry's post here and the mention of burying his opinion because it wasn't well received!
I look forward to being a viable, active member here! I'm saddened by the decline of Olympia and have recently developed a strong desire to become involved with the issues I'm passionate about and I'm willing to stand behind the thoughts & feelings I express while listening to the thoughts & opinions of of others I may not always agree with! I always try very hard to stand in the shoes of everyone before drawing any conclusions!
JstPlnOnry
I don't think it was Larry's
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 1:48pm.Personally I see very little difference whether something's on front or not. I'm constantly clicking on "recent posts" to see what's new or what comments have been added so I see something whether it's front or not.
Besides, with a relatively small community such as Olyblog, with it's relatively small daily output of new material, I don't see much point of even having a front page other than to keep posts which are only pictures or videos from crowding everything off.
Sleep, William Blake/All is well/There's a marriage up in heaven tonight/There's a fire in hell
Daniel Amos
nice handle
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 2:17pm.Hey Onry,
Perhaps I'm way off the mark here, but it seems like your conclusion, "I'm just asking not to pick & choose what gets front page because one or a few don't like it!", involves an assumption that may need to be cleared up.
Everyone who signs up for an account with OlyBlog gets a personal blog. Now, this blog can be used for anything and is, almost entirely, unmoderated. For example, people embed movies and music videos, blog poems, include fun links, etc. Now, if somebody is going to use their blog to push hate (racism comes to mind), then somebody would (I hope) drop the post into verbal purgatory, start a conversation amongst docents and then we'd take whatever action we came to consensus upon. Submitting a personal blog does not, however, automatically put whatever you post on the front page. As docents wander through OlyBlog and come across these new posts we decide whether or not to promote the item based on some subjective criterion that amounts to "this post has value as a hyperlocal resource." What you're witnessing with the recent docent conversation is our attempt to deal with this necessary (at least for now) subjectivity. Larry's post wasn't censored, it was returned to its original status.
JstPlnOnry
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Sun, 07/29/2007 - 8:26am.I really appreciated your comments and would have responded sooner but golf got in the way again yesterday. For the life of me, as much as I love golf, after three tournaments in three days, I am amazed at how the professionals can keep up that pace.
To the point - yep.....I'm THAT Larry. The Larry of Banned Camp Fame. Briefly, as I don't want to be redundant, but it bears explaining, I used the word "ass" in a comment and was "banned". Now, members of the Olympian staff would say I was "warned", which I equate to a referee telling boxers to keep their punches above the waist. With such subjective rules as The Olympian uses for commenters, plus their "we retain the right to refuse service to anyone", it's not hard to garner a "warning". In fact, Aaron Mason could issue a "warning" to someone just because he wants to, as there is no hard and fast rule, aside from some of the rather obvious, which it seems they ignore frequently. I don't come close to agreeing politically with "SondraK" and yet a banning for telling someone to "go to hell" is silly, in my eyes.
I don't blame The Olympian for wanting to have civility on their thread, but if their enforcement isn't equal, civility will never take place. I come from a media background and know the ropes as to how to push a point deep in debate. That doesn't make me a bad person, but I'll guarantee that some people that oppose me certainly get frustrated.
When "Janet" started posting that there should be a call-in campaign to have me removed from being able to comment, that should have been an indicator to any journalist. Ban one commenter because of popular demand and the next thing you know is that people will want to ban you. The Olympian felt the pain of that one when they posted that video and readers became upset. The next target in the war on free speech became them.
Whereas I would not have chosen to post such a video, I support The Olympian's right. I exercised my ability to avoid viewing something that I knew would be questionable to my taste and don't quite understand why others can't do the same. Now, on the other hand, The Olympian, in my opinion, should have (1) loved the amount of reader involvement this brought and (2) might have been smarter to use this issue as a "canary in a coal mine" for the direction of their content. If you don't please your readers, you have no power to sell your product.
I consulted to a weekly in Oregon several years ago. We retained a survey company from Portland to find out more about our readers. It was a great sample response and a powerful message to the Publishers of what their readers liked and disliked. I handed a copy of the results to the Executive Editor who looked at it for about 5 minutes and then replied "these people don't know what they are talking about". He didn't get it. The readers were telling him what he DIDN'T want to hear.
After my banning, I sent Vickie Kilgore a letter to critique an article and subsequent editorial about the hiring of Sheriff Dan Kimball's son to the force. I told her that I was sending her the letter because I couldn't comment in the open product. I basically said the story smacked of "nothingness" in terms of research and content and that the subsequent editorial was nothing more than The Olympian trying to criticize Dan's choice as a father, as opposed to saying that they were wrong in printing a story about a hiring that Dan had no control over. She disagreed with me and I respectfully suggested that we "agree to disagree". Unfortunately, that kind of thinking doesn't seem to work for The Olympian staff, at least in my experience in dealing with them.
I appreciate that the Docents of Olyblog are taking the time to examine the comments about the content of my writings and the placement. I've sat in on hundreds of meetings about news budgets and it's a healthy way of presenting your product. I'm confident that a good decision will be made
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
Banned Camp
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:36pm."We Are the Media Watchdog"???
Submitted by blagoblag on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 3:40pm.I didn't see a reply option earlier, so I sent this to Emmett instead...
Thanks for raising this for further discussion. I do think that media criticism is important, and there is obviously enthusiasm among some of us for discussion of The Olympian and Haloscan comments. I have no problem with that.
My concern is that this type of meta-discussion is beginning to dominate and possibly redefine Olyblog. I figure if all of the past and future posts on this topic were make it to the front page, we might as well change the site's slogan to "We Are the Media Watchdog".
I think my concerns would be pretty well addressed by the suggestions you listed, including the creation of the Olympian Watch subforum. I also agreed with Rob Whitlock's suggestion that, if a post on this topic does hit the front page, the offensive comments shouldn't be displayed from there (i.e., put them after the jump.)
Guglielmo...
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 9:04pm.This is not earthshatteringly serious, but if you really think I'm only doing one sentence commentary to anything I submit, I'm going to suggest you haven't read much of what I've submitted.
Most people that know me say I talk too much.
As you'll see, as time goes on, I'm going to expand my coverage of local print media to other sources, but I've been wrapped up in a lot of extra work hours the past two weeks. (to the folks that worry about the ratio of how much I work and blog, my work has gotten in the way of my blogging of late)
I won't be writing novels, as that's not my style.
I'm also considering a review of jazz, blues and R&B, as it's another passion of mine.
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
One Sentence Two Sentence
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sat, 07/28/2007 - 12:51pm.A mundane point not about the Olympian
Submitted by stevenl on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 8:02pm.Wow!
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 8:24pm.I take off for golf a tournament today and come home to all this!
Seriously, thanks to EVERYONE that posted on this subject. I'm not "untouchable", or better yet "unapproachable" and am certainly interested in the feelings of others. I especially like Onry's comments because, while he readily expresses that he often disagrees with my stance, he seems able to separate that difference from the ability to discern what I'm attempting to do.
Both Emmett and Sarah have gotten private messages from me, with me asking how I can make my blog better and still express a critique of local media and those readers that contribute to it. I'm looking forward to suggestions from both of them and others.
By the way, I did play as well today as yesterday. Thus I will refrain from a golf blog.
"There is only one race, the human race" - The Neville Brothers
please inform...
Submitted by Marcie on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 8:51pm.front page stuff
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 07/27/2007 - 10:56pm.Any item input into the community calendar is automatically placed on the front page and any person who signs up for an OlyBlog account can create an event. The assumption here is that local events are an aspect of being hyperlocal.
Outside of that we have nothing written down, just previous conversation about post promoting habits and etiquette. There does exist a real fuzziness to the "hyperlocal journalism" idea. Technically, if one Olympian is fascinated by Don Knotts and decides to regale us all with witty Knottisms, well...that is arguably hyperlocal journalism, although I can't imagine any of the current docent crop pushing that forward unless there were some explicit Olympia angle (Knott hair found in Oly toilet!)
No-brainer cases pop up: a review of something local, something witnessed in Oly, something directly affecting Oly, something coming to Oly, etc. Most of the time it's ridiculously obvious whether or not a blog post should be bumped to the front page, this time it hasn't been.